Imposter syndrome and entrepreneurial uncertainty

Anthony English: So, Lena, Imposter Syndrome. I think everybody feels it.

Lena Sesardic: Yeah, totally, totally. I think it’s, I think it’s got, you know, probably some evolutionary groups or something forces you to, you know, do things that are out of your comfort zone, but it can definitely get really uncomfortable. And also, sometimes we feel it when it doesn’t really exist, but we’re just paranoid or maybe insecure about our abilities.

Anthony English: Yeah, it’s, it’s really, really interesting. I’ve been thinking a lot about imposter syndrome. In fact, I’m writing a book about it at the moment, I think, I suspect well, that it affects women. Very, very much, and men, but perhaps they don’t admit it, or perhaps they push through it more, so.

Lena Sesardic: It could be. I mean, I think it depends on the situation. Like, if you’re, for example, you know, like, actually earlier, I think was yesterday, or today, I was in a meeting, and I realized that I was the only female out of I think, like, 1010 people in the meeting. And so I think in those situations, sometimes, you know, when there’s some sort of an imbalance, or maybe you’re with a bunch of senior people, and you’re the only junior person, yeah, it can kick in a little more when you feel like you’re maybe not, versus if I’m in a meeting with, for example, you know, my brand studio, it’s mainly all women, like, you know, maybe it’s like different. Or if you’re just kind of with my I’m with my tech team, and I feel more comfortable. Definitely feel less imposter syndrome. So I think it depends on the situation for sure.

Anthony English: Yeah, and, and I suppose, as you know, both of us have gone into the entrepreneurship in different ways, and have kind of moved out of it also in different ways. And that’s that itself, I suppose, really challenges you emotionally and in ways that like that are way beyond the, you know, financial freedom and be my own boss kind of thing. And really makes you understand, know yourself a whole lot better. Good and bad, right? You want to tell us a bit about your journey in that in that respect?

Lena Sesardic: Sure, sure. Yeah, so definitely was a lot more of a lesson of who I am than I thought it would be. I think you kind of expect that, you know, you think of the tactical things that you’re going to do and like kind of like the operational or maybe like, motivation that is strictly related to the startup idea, the business you’re trying to build. But I think when you’re doing something like that, with your bare hands, you really kind of learn what are you good at? What are you not good out? What stresses you out? And what can you handle? And ultimately, you know, what level of certainty Are you comfortable with? And so I think, for me, one of the biggest challenges actually was just that mental, you know, managing your own psychology and not not letting things you know, kind of chipped away at that, which is really hard. So I initially kind of set out to build a SAAS startup, that was my plan. I wanted to be a product founder, SAAS preferably, but I think I had about, I think, three or four runs at it. And each time for some reason, either invalidated the idea or lost interest. I wasn’t the right fit, or maybe long partnership or something. And so I think in the beginning, I was sort of doing the things that I would that I had set out to do. But I think towards the end, I started feeling like I was kind of grasping at straws, and it was almost like cycling between too many opportunities. And that actually contributed to my imposter syndrome because I was always doing something either a new type of product, new type of business, new industry, and that unknown was really triggering, I think a lot of imposter syndrome and eventually just, you know, running out of energy, basically to manage, I guess the uncertainty.

Anthony English: So for those who who haven’t heard the term imposter syndrome How would you kind of define it or explain it?

Lena Sesardic: I’ve heard that it’s been explained as like when you feel like you’ve gotten something that you didn’t quite deserve or you didn’t work towards it yourself. Although I’m not really sure that that definition like fully resonated for me I think it’s just more it’s not about not feeling and maybe that quote is totally wrong. That just kind of stuck in my head but I don’t think it’s that you have done something and now you’re in a situation that you don’t deserve to be in. I think it’s just more you know, you you are missing a certain skill set and you’re there’s there’s some sort of uncertainty of how to move forward, your how to look like you know what you’re doing. And so it’s kind of.

Anthony English: How you look like you know what you’re doing because you’re, you’re about to be exposed. Everybody got to discover that leader is a fraud. She is in here and she doesn’t belong, She doesn’t deserve Yeah, is that yeah,

Lena Sesardic: I’d even argue that it’s not even you’re about to be exposed, I think it’s like you are a little exposed. At least that’s how I I think the funny thing is, and it still happens to me honestly, like yesterday, I went to an event, a first in person event after a long time, and I was meeting a few new people, and a lot of them kind of recognize me from LinkedIn. And they were kind of like, oh, like, you know, I really like your content or whatever. And I’m still not used to people kind of appreciating those kinds of things. And so I think it’s like, you have this paranoia that people already know. Like, it’s kind of like, they know that you’re, now we’re just trying to cover it up. And I think, yeah.

Anthony English: So let’s, let’s share with those who are watching this, there are a couple of ideas that might help if they’re feeling imposter syndrome, especially if you’re trying to run your own business or got a side gig or a side hustle or, or just heading into something that’s kind of a new, a new area, somebody has asked you to be the team leader, and you just sort of thing. I’ve never done it. I’m not a manager. I’m not a leader. I’m, you know, we got any ideas there. And I’ll share some as well.

Lena Sesardic: Yeah, I mean, I think the first step is, I mean, just being honest about what you don’t know, and focusing on a plan of how you’re going to get there. So not letting try not to let the anxiety get to you like it’s okay to not know stuff. And it’s all about just creating a plan. No one knows everything. And I think that ties really nicely to the whole entrepreneurial experience. Because, yeah, in the beginning, you seem to think like everyone has it figured out and like I’m the only one that is doing nothing, you realize that entrepreneurship is actually no one really knows what they’re doing. And so that kind of comfort to you. But I think just being aware of that. And then just doing as quickly as possible, you know, let’s say, you know, you’re working on a new project, it’s like, just just get it out, publish it as quickly as possible to train that muscle. If you’re on a new team, just ask all the stupid questions, get it over with like, be feel stupid, for as little as possible by quickly just like chipping away at things. I think those would be kind of my two tips. But I’m curious what your what your kind of feedback would be.

Anthony English: Yeah. So, so very often I find that people have gotten past it, they feel that they are inadequate, in something that like when you get to a stage where you are really good at something to you. Let’s say it’s cooking. Okay, so I’m a really, I’m a terrible cook. Okay. I can cook a few little things. Okay. But, but if I tell you, Lena, I’m an awful cook. And I’m comparing myself with a master chef. I mean, you just Anthony, you’re already cooking. Oh, no, I can’t cook. No, no, Anthony, you are already cooking. Mm hmm. You can cook toast. Oh, yeah, that’s not really cooking. Well, you know how to make a boiled egg? Yeah. Okay, you know how to make some rice and, and so you’re not a master chef, but you are a cook, so that

Lena Sesardic: You have some skills.

Anthony English: The first few years. So that’s first sense of identity who I am. And it’s rather than defining myself but who I’m not. Okay. Yeah. Okay, fine. I’m not a master chef and I don’t aspire to be. But you know, if, if, if nobody else is here to cook, and I’ve got seven children who are hungry, like they are not going to starve to death. Yeah.

Lena Sesardic: Exactly. Okay.

Anthony English: So that’s the first thing is sometimes is that what we’re doing is we’re we’re putting ourselves comparing ourselves with like the ultimate with the Olympic champion. But the other thing that I think is really, really interesting, because then when you get to a point where you are at least competent at something, you tend to not notice just how hard it was for people who didn’t know how hard it is for people that don’t know how to do it. And so that’s why people will give advice that I think is not helpful when somebody just do it. You’re amazing and that’s it. And that’s, that’s you just kind of dismiss that kind of encouragement because they’re not seeing what the resistance is. And once you’ve actually got to that point, I’ll give you a perfect example. The number of people who have told me they could never do video. I can’t record a video for YouTube or whatever. And sites just stop right there. I’m not going to tell you you can do it. I’m gonna tell you that you just told me that over zoom. The very thing that you say that you could never do, you’ve just done. Oh, yeah, but we weren’t recording that was different. Okay. Can we say that? Again? I’ll ask you the question again. But we’ll I’ll hit record as well. Is that okay? Yeah, so very often the thing that you you are actually really good at or able to do, you don’t even realize just how hard how impossible it is for somebody who can’t. And so having that compassion to be able to lean down to them and say, Actually, I understand how hard it is. Because they used to, I used to be the same. And then very gently. And so what we’re really doing is, I suppose bridging the gap between, I’m a total beginner and I have got no clue. And I’m a super expert. And what’s wrong with all of these beginners? And to bridge that gap, I think is really awesome.

Lena Sesardic: Mm hmm. No, that makes a lot of sense. I think something that came to mind is, I think we need we we tend to play down our own abilities, and also play up other people’s abilities like it kind of like I think we’re feeling like that imposter. We’re like, oh, we know nothing. But everyone else knows everything. case at all, it’s just, we know a little bit less than these people, obviously, because we’re beginning but like, they don’t know everything. So it’s that imbalance. I think just being more cognizant of that might be helpful, really be aware that you have a bias, like I think you can’t control that you have the bias because it’s human nature, but being aware of it, is it’s just like, you know, you don’t take enough deep breaths in a day, it’s like, it’s time to do that, because we’re because we’re anxious, but if you kind of just like acknowledge it, it’s like, you will just breathe more like, you know, you just have to kind of remind yourself and then notice, like, oh, I bias towards not breathing deeply at all. So let me just like kind of be aware of that, and then remind myself and fix the behavior.

Anthony English: See? That’s a great point. The other thing is that we can’t see ourselves properly anyway. Like, when we see ourselves on video, for example. My right hand, so this is my right hand. But to you it looks like what my left hand, right? Yeah. Because, because yeah, so I’m seeing the I’ve got like, that’s how I see it. When I look in a mirror, I never actually see myself the way that the whole world sees me. My voice sounds funny when I hear it myself. That’s why I look, I cringe when I look at myself on camera, all of that sort of thing is that you’re not seeing the world, you’re not seeing yourself the way that everybody else sees you and knows you and loves you. You know, you’ve if you’ve got that internal bias if you like. And so being able to see it more through their eyes rather than your own. Which really requires empathy, which is a key part of entrepreneurship, especially the marketing and selling. It’s so powerful.

Lena Sesardic: No, totally. No, I think that’s an important point. You know, we we are not the best judges of everything, especially ourselves. Yeah. And the other thing I’d add is even like, the the time period at which we’re assessing ourselves, and what the perception that we have at that time, what knowledge do we have? What state are we in all that impact? And of course, when you’re feeling more like an imposter, you’re more inclined to feel a little lower about yourself, right? So just being aware of that, because sometimes you’ll feel like an imposter. And then, you know, a few months later, when things are better. It’s like you kind of think back to like, you’re like why, like when I think about my first product idea that I ever, you know, tried to launch. I actually managed to get mentioned on a podcast, which is pretty pretty, like it’s pretty cool. Like for the first product like I had tweeted at them on Twitter, like put my whole product idea out there for the world to see. I had watched like an old episode of theirs and then tweeted out them and then they mentioned me in the next episode, but in the moment, I felt like it was just so Junior, like the product idea was so lame, and I was just this early entrepreneur but now when I think about it, I’m like that’s actually pretty awesome that I got myself on a podcast like yeah, the product idea didn’t make it I didn’t build a startup out of it, but it’s like, that’s actually like for the first time like it’s not Too bad. So I think retrospectively, we’re kinder to ourselves. So in the moment, we tend to think like, wow, this is so ridiculous, but later, it’s like, okay, like, that actually was not too bad. Like that first landing page was not as much of a disaster, as I felt like it was in the moment.

Anthony English: And when you look at things like, you know, worldwide products, like, you know, Google Google products and so on, you just see, how can they miss that thing like, that is so obvious, it’s so hard that so many things, and they just say, like, we’ve got away with it, we’re not feeling any imposter syndrome about this. You think, Oh, my goodness, I made this hard to do. In treatment to delete something, I’m going to delete, delete, delete, but hang on, I’m going to go ahead and delete 50. And I’m going to select each one one at a time, and then press Delete, confirm. And you just think they how can they get away with this, but somebody somehow they do. It really interesting point that you made to about I suppose that that whole transition into into the entrepreneurship and changing direction, realizing only after the after the fact that wow, that was actually that was actually a monster. That was a turning point. I didn’t realize.

Lena Sesardic: Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And I still.

Anthony English: Sorry, you know, what? Was it a big jump to? Like, did you wake up one day, I’m going to be an entrepreneur, I’m going to start my own business, I’m going to be my own boss.

Lena Sesardic: No, it happened over the course of I’d say, like four or five months, or maybe like six months or something. So I was working at this at this company and innovation team. And so we were basically trying to try out new products, we were doing a lot of customer interviews, like market research, kind of like, you know, true, kind of like innovation lab type of stuff. We had an entrepreneur in residence on our team. And so he, like was the first person to expose me to the whole idea of what happens before you start building the product for the customer discovery and you know, the whole like market analysis, and is this a valid, viable option compared to these other options. And so I kind of started getting my feet wet. And it was just so different to what I’d ever done. But I think about a month into that job, I knew that eventually I would go and try do to do the entrepreneur thing. But I kind of figured I need more time just to learn this stuff. Like I’ll just kind of stay here for maybe a year, year and a half, and then I’ll go out on my own. But the my plans changed because they ended up changing the leadership of this company. And then they ended up cutting my team, they were going to reabsorb me into the Oregon so I basically went off on my merry way wasted Mary way, way sooner than I thought I would. And so I was kind of not really prepared for it. I mean, I known that it was going to be everyone told me it was gonna be an emotional roller coaster. And you know, but like, people say all kinds of things. And I was just like, oh, like, I don’t think you’re being dramatic. I think I didn’t really I didn’t really believe them. And I was like, No, the hard part is like building the product. And like, the financials, which is not like building a product is hard. Yes. But, but really like what, what can potentially have the effect of making you not want to do it anymore, just not mental. Right. And so I think I was like slightly naive, but the saving grace was I think I was very aware of failure, and very aware of how common failure was. And I think one of my main mentors actually, like he’s an excellent entrepreneur. But he hasn’t had like some crazy mind blowing exit compared to a lot of his friends because he just hasn’t gotten lucky. And so that was kind of one of my main mentors. And so I came into the experience very sober so that I didn’t expect the the mental kind of turmoil that would happen.

Anthony English: Yeah, so, so that’s a really a very, very important point especially because it’s so easy to pose on LinkedIn or on Twitter and say, wow, hey, I’ve started and you know, we’ve got our first client and we’ve got our and and your what, you know, what our monthly recurring revenue is whatever, and you just, everybody seems to be successful except me. Right? Yeah. And and once you can, actually so that’s why sometimes a mastermind or you know, getting a like even a one off session in you know, in growth mentor with somebody can be super helpful, because then you realize, because they can see sometimes something that you that even if they don’t know your industry, they can see some value that they I can see it through the eyes of an outsider. Or maybe they’ve got that experience, maybe they’ve had some bad experience, and they can help you and say, Hey, this is going to be okay. Or I really think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. Here is something where it’s going to is going to come back to bite you if you don’t, if you ignore this bit. And just even having that. I think it’s just, it’s just one one of the wonderful spin offs of the whole entrepreneur kind of industry is that you’ve got so many other people in so many different stages. And some of them might be like, super brilliant, technically, and have exactly zero clue about marketing. Or the other way around, you know? Yeah.

Lena Sesardic: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think what you’re, what you’re mentioning really ties back to earlier, which is we cannot see ourselves objectively, and that’s why we need mentorship and, and, you know, advisors and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, like, I mean, mentoring was honestly a huge part of my entrepreneurial journey. And I don’t think I talked about that enough, actually. Because both on the mentee and the mentor side, so both with growth mentor, and this other community called entrepreneurship at UBC, which is the entrepreneurship community at the university I went to and here in Vancouver, yeah, for both those communities, I initially joined as a mentee, and then probably because I was feeling like an imposter, like, what do I know about customer discovery? Like what do I know about like mentoring, and joined as a mentee, and in both situations, they were at some point, they’re just like, hey, like, we’d love to have you as a mentor. And when they were what me. But it’s, this is a classic example of imposter syndrome. Right? I was like, I don’t know if I can be a mentor. And then I became a mentor. And like, I was able to help so many people. Yeah, so that was a huge confidence boost. But also just, you know, even to even today, it’s like now I’m a mentor and growth mentor, like I have at least you know, like, two to four calls per week, people help with who need help with product management, LinkedIn, or whatever. And I think just that act of giving back, it sounds so basic, but just helping someone else through their problems. It’s almost like, I just know how painful it is, like, especially these like startup problems, or even like some problems that product managers have. It’s really challenging. And I think for me, it’s interesting, because because I’ve been on both sides in both these communities, I really understand how the mentee feels and the mentor. So when I get a mentee request, I can just picture myself typing the thing and like you’re so you know, you’re really, you’re just like this solution, like this person is really going to help me and you’re like really letting all your problems and I really understand that. And so I think being able to be the person on the other end, who’s just like, hey, like, I’m going to help you like at least a little bit, today, I’m going to be a sounding board and like, it’s gonna feel a little less painful. I think being able to do that for other people, makes your own struggles a lot, not a lot easier, but just a little easier to bear. So mentoring on both ends was honestly integral to my whole journey. And now it’s completely part of my career, my whole being like everything that I do. So, yeah.

Anthony English: It’s great. And the role of compassion, okay. Because when I remember when a very, very first started out, daring to go out on my own, which didn’t really work out at all, but when I first started and somebody mentioned about marketing, and I had no clue what they meant as marketing sales, it’s the same thing. And but the whoever was kind of teaching, teaching us at the time was kind enough to explain to Dumbo is like me. And in fact, I realized it wasn’t just me, nearly everybody was in the same boat. Yeah, here’s what marketing is about. And here’s what selling is about. And here’s why you hate selling, and here’s why, you know, and then start to explain why we had the complete ride you have by selling watts, you know, and that, really what we’re doing is we’re serving and serving with compassion, understanding and not sort of, so really creating that safe space for people to ask what they themselves think are dumb questions. And very often you find that what they think is a dumb question, is just a question that you’re they’re so glad that they asked and that you’re so glad they asked. And it opens up a whole new path that they had not and you had not even been aware of. Wow, I had no idea that this was a strength. For example, you know, I was asked him everything because I felt really embarrassed about it. And I feel like I’m missing this is actually that that you think is a weakness is actually your strength. And so being able to show them that I think it’s a great gift for a mentor. It’s a great privilege for me to be able to do that, you know?

Lena Sesardic: Yeah. 100%. Yeah. So what were kind of your biggest challenges with imposter syndrome, either in your entrepreneurial journey? Or like going back to corporate leaving corporate? Like, what are some of the recurring themes?

Anthony English: Yeah, so, so one of the things so I’ve been in it, an IT background, I saw it, you guys never got to see the money. We never gotten involved in projects and budgets, and all of that sort of stuff. That was the other end of the. And so we were just hands on technical people. But what happened was that as, as I ended up working on bigger projects, I would work with a number of different companies. And I, and I ended up talking to people who were not technical. And there were, you know, there might have been the HR manager, or the payroll manager or somebody else. And I realized, I’ve got to be able to talk to them without using any of my jargon. Okay. And so that was kind of the introduction to me. Which was, I was in the headspace of thinking, I’m a technical person. And then I realized, I’m going to become a bit more of a teacher, I’ve got to be able to explain, before we worry about how to fix this printer, or the software or whatever. First thing I’m going to have to understand is, well, what’s the impact? Why is this not working? And who cares? Why does that matter? Why are you why are you calling me at five o’clock on a Friday afternoon? To say that, you know, this is not working? Why was this even on your radar. And so, because I was coming in from a technical point of view, I My immediate reaction was, I can’t sell, I don’t talk about money, I’m embarrassed by talking about money. And I don’t know about marketing, and I can’t write and just keep me on the technical side. And so that was a mental block, because I realized that my technical expertise, my troubleshooting expertise, was perfect, perfectly translate into troubleshooting people’s struggles as it is, because I tend to be very objective, very, you know, like a technical guy. I mean, you kind of lucky that I’m making eye contact with you, right? And so, you, so I was able to, to break things down to ask some questions, but without actually getting technical. And I knew that so that was a big part of imposter syndrome was I didn’t realize that my non technical skills were more valuable, then, then my technical skills, which are very advanced, because I’ve got, you know, 3040 years of technical experience, you know, then I look clean. So I’ve got more experience, but it was not the technical that was not the real value that I was that I was able to deliver.

Lena Sesardic: And how did that make you feel like an imposter or an attic? Yeah,

Anthony English: Well, because I’ve, I felt like I always had to apologize before I made a statement in a group of, you know, people starting their own business or going out on their own. Look, I’m sorry, I’m not attending. I’m not a marketing person. But I look I’m really no good at selling but, and I was always kind of pushing back and saying, I’m, I had to apologize for myself before I made what might have actually been a very helpful statement. Yeah, so I don’t wear the badge. I don’t have this. I haven’t ever worked in this field. And therefore let me devalue my whatever it is that I’m about to say before I say it.

Lena Sesardic: It’s interesting, because I feel like that that kind of notion is sort of a big reason why I think I was really enamored with the entrepreneurial space and a lot of people I think really love the space is because it’s really not about what do you have experience with like, what job title Have you worked before? Like it’s not like corporate it’s literally just and I think that was kind of like the sobering you know, experience with my entrepreneurial journey. It was like, I don’t care if you’re not marketing, you’re building a landing page or like, I don’t care if you’ve never done a cold call like it’s on you now. Like, you got to do it yourself like and, and you can do it just literally, you know, like, you have to go through the process, learn it and it’s like very, like when I first left corporate I felt almost like naked. I was like, who am I? What am I What are these skills? Like? I’m only used to working in a job where it’s like very narrow, right? So yeah, but I think that’s the beauty of the space where it’s like, there’s people who, you know, there’s like, you know, really young people like in their teenage years who are able to kind of like build a full startup, they didn’t have that much experience, but it’s just you can do it with your bare hands, like people don’t have university degrees, it doesn’t matter. Like the market doesn’t care. If the founder has a universe, the market doesn’t care where the founder is, like, exactly so tiny village in Thailand coding where it’s like, there’s no there’s no limit. There’s no like, barrier to entry. Right? And and so it’s kind of like a very like down to like, you’re, they’re almost like hunter gatherer. It’s like, okay, what can you really create on your own without relying on all these, like institutions of like the job and the boundaries and the vacation? Yeah, that’s also the danger of it. Because there’s no, there’s no rule. There’s no boundaries into it. But I think that that was what attracted me to it. Because I think I didn’t even notice until I gotten into when I got into it. I was just like, Whoa, it’s really just like, my raw skills, and how quickly can I learn things and figure things out? Because even if you know something, you still have to now figure it out for your own business. Right. And so I think it’s a really cool, double-edged sword actually. Yeah.

Anthony English: Lena, we’ve got so much, so much more that we could cover. I’m thinking that we could have a another another episode around the whole entrepreneurship too.

Lena Sesardic: Yeah. yeah yeah. That should be performed.

Anthony English: Is that sound good?

Lena Sesardic: 100%? Yeah. 100% No, this has been awesome.

Anthony English: So for now, so this is let’s wrap this up now. How do people get in touch in touch with you? Is that ever through GrowthMentor? That’d be a good.

Lena Sesardic: Yeah, absolutely GrowthMentor. I have my profile, feel free to reach out. I’m also pretty active on LinkedIn. So feel free to message me there. Perfect. Great. Thank you, Anthony.